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How strong was Future Gohan (with 2 arms)
Topic Started: Aug 11 2013, 11:34 AM (2,156 Views)
Demon Flame
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There is nothing outright stating he trained, unless you consider the general consensus that everybody was going to train for the battle. There isn't anything outright stating any of the humans trained either.

That is so misleading. The humans had a three year gap so it stands to reason they trained during that time. Trunks did not necessarily have a three year gap. There is nothing in the manga saying he aged three years between his first and second trip. Since he is a time traveler you cannot equate the time he spent with the time the z-fighters spent as if there was a one-to-one correspondence between the two. He can come back in 3 years or 15 years if he wants to.

Quote:
 
What we do have are implications and statements that put Trunks in the same league as Goku and Vegeta. Your comment that he was one-shotted by the androids is a bit off, as he was hit from behind by No.17 yet still got up to attack No.18, and it was only after he'd been tossed into Vegeta that he was down for the count. Vegeta was also put down after a couple attacks when No.18 actually got serious against him.

No. You can gripe about when she "got serious" but the gist of this fight was that Vegeta tired out while 18 did not, and when he had tired himself out and let up on the offense, she quickly crushed him. Basically she was playing rope-a-dope with Vegeta exploiting her infinite engine. You cannot read these fight scenes and tell me there is no difference between Vegeta and Trunks' performance. Vegeta did way better. And like I said Vegeta himself called Trunks strongest blast weak earlier.

Quote:
 
There would also be Trunks following Vegeta to find the androids. Vegeta turned Super Saiyan to lose him and was unable to.

This is typical of your tunnel-vision when it comes to arguments. When Trunks fought Frieza he was vastly beyond Vegeta in power. During that three years Vegeta went from a comparative joke to being even in speed with Trunks and superior in strength. This isn't proof Trunks trained, it is proof he didn't train. If he had been training much, you would expect him to have held his advantage against Vegeta instead of having their places reversed.

Quote:
 
Then there are Trunks's statements themselves portraying a jump in his ability to fend off the androids.

This is a really disingenuous line of argument. You make it sound like he made the first quote before leaving and the 2nd after returning. He made both those quotes after returning and therefore there is nothing telling us to what times they referred. The truth, if you will believe me, is actually obvious. The first line refers to him when he first went Super Saiyan and got badly whooped. The 2nd refers to him in the present, when he had trained and beaten Frieza. This was the same time period he told bulma he thought he was a match for the androids. This is what happens when you just read power lines off a list without seeing them in the context of the manga. You get their meaning confused.
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Zenet
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Piccolo > > > SSJ Trunks (First appearance)


Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2
Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with basically one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.”


Indicating there could have been some training done with Trunks or it doesn't necessarily mean that Trunks was stronger and was being compared with Krillin's strength.
Edited by Zenet, Aug 12 2013, 01:56 AM.
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+ Pyrus
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Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 01:00 AM
Quote:
 
There is nothing outright stating he trained, unless you consider the general consensus that everybody was going to train for the battle. There isn't anything outright stating any of the humans trained either.

That is so misleading. The humans had a three year gap so it stands to reason they trained during that time. Trunks did not necessarily have a three year gap. There is nothing in the manga saying he aged three years between his first and second trip. Since he is a time traveler you cannot equate the time he spent with the time the z-fighters spent as if there was a one-to-one correspondence between the two. He can come back in 3 years or 15 years if he wants to.

Quote:
 
What we do have are implications and statements that put Trunks in the same league as Goku and Vegeta. Your comment that he was one-shotted by the androids is a bit off, as he was hit from behind by No.17 yet still got up to attack No.18, and it was only after he'd been tossed into Vegeta that he was down for the count. Vegeta was also put down after a couple attacks when No.18 actually got serious against him.

No. You can gripe about when she "got serious" but the gist of this fight was that Vegeta tired out while 18 did not, and when he had tired himself out and let up on the offense, she quickly crushed him. Basically she was playing rope-a-dope with Vegeta exploiting her infinite engine. You cannot read these fight scenes and tell me there is no difference between Vegeta and Trunks' performance. Vegeta did way better. And like I said Vegeta himself called Trunks strongest blast weak earlier.

Quote:
 
There would also be Trunks following Vegeta to find the androids. Vegeta turned Super Saiyan to lose him and was unable to.

This is typical of your tunnel-vision when it comes to arguments. When Trunks fought Frieza he was vastly beyond Vegeta in power. During that three years Vegeta went from a comparative joke to being even in speed with Trunks and superior in strength. This isn't proof Trunks trained, it is proof he didn't train. If he had been training much, you would expect him to have held his advantage against Vegeta instead of having their places reversed.

Quote:
 
Then there are Trunks's statements themselves portraying a jump in his ability to fend off the androids.

This is a really disingenuous line of argument. You make it sound like he made the first quote before leaving and the 2nd after returning. He made both those quotes after returning and therefore there is nothing telling us to what times they referred. The truth, if you will believe me, is actually obvious. The first line refers to him when he first went Super Saiyan and got badly whooped. The 2nd refers to him in the present, when he had trained and beaten Frieza. This was the same time period he told bulma he thought he was a match for the androids. This is what happens when you just read power lines off a list without seeing them in the context of the manga. You get their meaning confused.
How do you expect anybody here to genuinely debate with you when you're so quick to jump to insults? You're not a bad debater, that much is clear, but the way you carry yourself turns people off from engaging with you.

It's actually unfortunate.
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Saiyan Femme
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Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 01:00 AM
Quote:
 
There is nothing outright stating he trained, unless you consider the general consensus that everybody was going to train for the battle. There isn't anything outright stating any of the humans trained either.

That is so misleading. The humans had a three year gap so it stands to reason they trained during that time. Trunks did not necessarily have a three year gap. There is nothing in the manga saying he aged three years between his first and second trip. Since he is a time traveler you cannot equate the time he spent with the time the z-fighters spent as if there was a one-to-one correspondence between the two. He can come back in 3 years or 15 years if he wants to.
Before Future Trunks returned to his own time for the first time, right after he had just told Goku all about the androids, he said something along the lines of "I should go now, so mother wont get worried".

I think that pretty much implies that he couldn't simply return to the moment in which he had just left, if he went back to that moment he would just be travelling to a different timeline. If he initially travelled exactly 20 years to the past, then after he told Goku everything he had to travel exactly 20 years to the future to return to his own timeline.

Same with the case you are implying, if he had just travelled directly to the time when the androids awakening right after telling Goku everything, he would just go to a different timeline. He had to wait 3 years for the androids like everyone else.
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Demon Flame
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Saiyan Femme
Aug 12 2013, 02:33 AM
Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 01:00 AM
Quote:
 
There is nothing outright stating he trained, unless you consider the general consensus that everybody was going to train for the battle. There isn't anything outright stating any of the humans trained either.

That is so misleading. The humans had a three year gap so it stands to reason they trained during that time. Trunks did not necessarily have a three year gap. There is nothing in the manga saying he aged three years between his first and second trip. Since he is a time traveler you cannot equate the time he spent with the time the z-fighters spent as if there was a one-to-one correspondence between the two. He can come back in 3 years or 15 years if he wants to.
Before Future Trunks returned to his own time for the first time, right after he had just told Goku all about the androids, he said something along the lines of "I should go now, so mother wont get worried".

I think that pretty much implies that he couldn't simply return to the moment in which he had just left, if he went back to that moment he would just be travelling to a different timeline. If he initially travelled exactly 20 years to the past, then after he told Goku everything he had to travel exactly 20 years to the future to return to his own timeline.

Same with the case you are implying, if he had just travelled directly to the time when the androids awakening right after telling Goku everything, he would just go to a different timeline. He had to wait 3 years for the androids like everyone else.
Actually he said that before he knew that he was creating a new timeline. So that explanation can't be right. Originally, when he talked to Goku he thought time travel would actually affect his own future and not create a new timeline, so whatever he was thinking of when he was worried about his mother, it wasn't that he would create a new timeline.

The truth is that Trunks, at that time, did not know precisely how time travel would work, because it was untested. There is proof what I am saying is true: in Cell's timeline, Trunks came back from the past, and a while later Cell killed him and then went back to the time Trunks had set his time machine to before. So it is possible to travel back to the same time even if time has passed for you, and vice versa.
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Saiyan Femme
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Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 03:00 AM
in Cell's timeline, Trunks came back from the past, and a while later Cell killed him and then went back to the time Trunks had set his time machine to before. So it is possible to travel back to the same time even if time has passed for you, and vice versa.
No, Cell changed the settings to go back 3 years before the Android's awakening, because it would take him 3 years to grow out of his egg, remember? That's how he arrived to the main timeline, instead of the time to which that Trunks (the Trunks from Cell's timeline) had travelled to.

Why would Trunks think his mom would worry if he could just easily go back to the exact moment when he left? And especially if, as you seem to believe, he assumed he would travel to a changed time? I don't think your theory makes much sense..

Later in the saga, Trunks explains that the reason he went back in time was to hopefully find out in that timeline a way to defeat the androids, not because he thought it would change his own timeline in any way.
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Saiyan Femme
Aug 12 2013, 03:56 AM
Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 03:00 AM
in Cell's timeline, Trunks came back from the past, and a while later Cell killed him and then went back to the time Trunks had set his time machine to before. So it is possible to travel back to the same time even if time has passed for you, and vice versa.
No, Cell changed the settings to go back 3 years before the Android's awakening, because it would take him 3 years to grow out of his egg, remember? That's how he arrived to the main timeline, instead of the time to which that Trunks (the Trunks from Cell's timeline) had travelled to.

Why would Trunks think his mom would worry if he could just easily go back to the exact moment when he left? And especially if, as you seem to believe, he assumed he would travel to a changed time? I don't think your theory makes much sense..

Later in the saga, Trunks explains that the reason he went back in time was to hopefully find out in that timeline a way to defeat the androids, not because he thought it would change his own timeline in any way.
Three years before the androids awakening = when Trunks fought Frieza, what it was originally set to. Trunks went back to change time originally, but it was a desire to find out about the androids that lead him to come back the second time. As far as the line about his mom I think you are really putting too much thought into it. It does seem a little strange since he should have thought he would go back to a changed future, but I think I have made the case for why this should not be weighed too heavily. Oh and one last point, Trunks grew during one year in the time chamber but he didn't seem to change at all in between trips so it is not likely he spent three years waiting.
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Trunks said the time machine takes 8 months to charge and I believe he is listed 1 year older in the android sags then the buu saga.
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Gogeta power placement
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Zenet
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Aug 12 2013, 04:17 AM
Saiyan Femme
Aug 12 2013, 03:56 AM
Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 03:00 AM
in Cell's timeline, Trunks came back from the past, and a while later Cell killed him and then went back to the time Trunks had set his time machine to before. So it is possible to travel back to the same time even if time has passed for you, and vice versa.
No, Cell changed the settings to go back 3 years before the Android's awakening, because it would take him 3 years to grow out of his egg, remember? That's how he arrived to the main timeline, instead of the time to which that Trunks (the Trunks from Cell's timeline) had travelled to.

Why would Trunks think his mom would worry if he could just easily go back to the exact moment when he left? And especially if, as you seem to believe, he assumed he would travel to a changed time? I don't think your theory makes much sense..

Later in the saga, Trunks explains that the reason he went back in time was to hopefully find out in that timeline a way to defeat the androids, not because he thought it would change his own timeline in any way.
Three years before the androids awakening = when Trunks fought Frieza, what it was originally set to. Trunks went back to change time originally, but it was a desire to find out about the androids that lead him to come back the second time. As far as the line about his mom I think you are really putting too much thought into it. It does seem a little strange since he should have thought he would go back to a changed future, but I think I have made the case for why this should not be weighed too heavily. Oh and one last point, Trunks grew during one year in the time chamber but he didn't seem to change at all in between trips so it is not likely he spent three years waiting.
So do you think Vegeta, Piccolo and Goku are much stronger than Trunks at this point?
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Saiyan Femme
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Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 04:17 AM
Three years before the androids awakening = when Trunks fought Frieza, what it was originally set to. Trunks went back to change time originally, but it was a desire to find out about the androids that lead him to come back the second time.
Cell travelled back in time because the Androids didn't exist in that timeline anymore, who defeated them? Trunks. And did that one trip to the time Freeza came to Earth revealed to him how to do so? No, just like the Future Trunks we know, this Trunks travelled a second time around the time the Androids showed up. He never went back or even planned to go back to the time of Freeza's arrival to Earth. Cell changed the settings to go back to the time he desired and arrived to the Main Timeline.

About Trunks changing, it's not that strange he didn't change in appearance from 17 to 20 years old. And even after Trunks was in the RoSaT and had long hair, once he changed his hair he really didn't look that different from before.

I don't think I'm putting too much weight in the quote about Bulma, you are putting none because it hurts your faulty argument. The explanation that there are infinite timelines, and that each of them can't be accessed at whatever moment in it the traveller wishes but rather at the exact moment happening in that timeline, makes way more sense.
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+ Pyrus
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According to the official information we have, Trunks was 17 when he debuted to Goku and company. When he returned he was 19 (before any RoSaT business).

Of course, I'm sure that's wrong because.

Here you go for the timelines: http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/07-fourfutures.php

Quote:
 
Timelines II, III:
--Bulma completes work on a time machine, which she hopes to use to save Earth from the androids. Though changing the past will merely create an alternate timeline and have no direct effect on their own world, Bulma hopes that by studying the androids in the past they may discover some weakness in them, or possibly they could bring Goku from the past into their own timeline and have him defeat the androids for them. If nothing else, Bulma wishes for there to be at least one peaceful timeline where the androids do not exist. She sends Trunks to Age 764, shortly before Goku returns to Earth from Namek, to warn him about the androids and give him medicine to cure the heart disease that led to his death in their own timeline. After Trunks returns, they begin waiting 8 months for the time machine to charge up enough energy for another round trip.
[Ref: Bulma’s motives are explained in Chapter 357 and Trunks: the Story. The year number I’ve used is from Daizenshuu 7’s alternate timeline explanation page. In Chapter 334 Trunks says he came from roughly 20 years in the future, but in Trunks: the Story Bulma says he’ll go 17 years into the past. Meanwhile the Trunks TV Special has Bulma tell him to go 20 years into the past. The 8 months it takes the time machine to charge is from Trunks: the Story, though Chapter 419 seems to imply it needs 3 years to charge rather than 8 months. I’ve ignored this.]

AGE 785
Timeline III:
--Now that the time machine has stored enough energy for another round trip, Trunks departs for Age 767 to help Goku and co. confront the androids. After returning to his own timeline, Trunks manages to defeat the androids there on his own in some way.
[Ref: Year number is from Daizenshuu 7’s alternate timeline explanation page. Chapter 358 shows Cell as coming from 788, which Trunks says is 3 years further into the future than he himself came. Presumably during the 8 month charge time the year has changed from 784 to 785. In Chapter 363 Cell simply assumes the androids in his timeline were destroyed by Trunks. The Daizenshuu 7 alternate timeline explanation says that the Trunks in Cell’s timeline had defeated the androids using their shutdown controller, which he found in the past, while DB Forever simply says he defeated them “in some way”. Apparently there are problems with the shutdown controller scenario, so I’m erring on the side of vagueness.]

Timeline II:
--Now that the time machine has stored enough energy for another round trip, Trunks departs for Age 767 to help Goku and co. confront the androids. After returning to his own timeline, Trunks uses the strength he gained training in the Room of Spirit and Time to easily defeat the androids there. Having learned about Cell in the past, Trunks begins waiting three years for Cell to show himself.
--DB Chapter 419 (DBZ 225) is partially set on this day.
[Ref: Déjà vu all over again: year number is from Daizenshuu 7’s alternate timeline explanation page. Chapter 358 shows Cell as coming from 788, which Trunks says is 3 years further into the future than he himself came. Presumably during the 8 month charge time the year has changed from 784 to 785.]

AGE 786
Timeline III, perhaps II:
—Cell completes his 24 years of development. However, the computer informs him that in order to reach his perfect form, he must absorb two specific life-forms: Androids No.17 and No.18. Cell begins looking for these androids.
[Ref: The date is from Cell’s Daizenshuu 7 bio. Cell mentions his 24 years of development in Chapter 363, though counting from that year (767) would mean Cell only finishes development in 791, despite the fact that he’s supposed to have come from 788. It’s all a bit knotty, but basically Daizenshuu 7 tries to fix this by counting the 24 years as starting in 762, when the first (known) cells for Cell are collected. This leaves a two year gap between when his development completes and when he uses Trunks’ time machine, but I guess he just wandered around looking for 17+18 during that time. If Cell was in the lab for a year after Trunks returned from his second trip to the past, then it’s not clear why Trunks in Timeline II waited 3 years for Cell to show himself, rather than just going to destroy Cell in Gero’s laboratory right away. Well, whatever.]
[1]
[1] http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19669
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 12 2013, 06:17 PM.
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Demon Flame
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???

That quote you posted says he waited 8 months between trips. If it is true that the Trunks special says he waited 8 months, then I guess that is what happened. So he did train, for 8 months, but it clearly is not very significant of a boost, at least compared to the z fighters 3 years. Or alternatively if you want to choose that he trained 2 years, I guess that is inconsistent but it could be consistent if you look at the manga without the Trunks special.
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